295 replies to this topic

[Junior]

Do you mean the CTF competition mode? I haven't made it yet because I thought it wasn't worth it (few people actually play CTF). Of course I could re-evaluate this judgement.

ye, tl 15. we need to play red & blue on each map so after timelimit got hit it shouldnt go back to shop after the medals but sw teams and start 2nd said after !mr

[BladHark]

Actually I've made a nades/nonades command last week for a certain customer (version 1.89). Please contact me through the control panel and I can install it on your server.

Is it really a big deal that the spectators can chat with dead players? If so, why? Maybe we can make admin spectator chat visible, and other spectator chat invisible.

just personal preference at the chat thingie, kinda puts me off when i see tons of random people talking when i die.

id like the nades/nonades command on my server, but it isnt setup yet, should be pending as ive paid a few days ago, get it up n ill give you my info!

[max]

ye, tl 15. we need to play red & blue on each map so after timelimit got hit it shouldnt go back to shop after the medals but sw teams and start 2nd said after !mr

So basically you'd like to have the exact same system as in infiltration. That is easy to port to CTF.

CTF uses a sudden death rule. If the total score in the second round (1st + 2nd round) is equal, should we handle sudden death rules or end the match?

Also, I assume the team score should show the combined score over both rounds? In infiltration it's separated, but I think it's better to combine in CTF.

Should there be any score limit at all for each round (e.g. 20)?

just personal preference at the chat thingie, kinda puts me off when i see tons of random people talking when i die.

id like the nades/nonades command on my server, but it isnt setup yet, should be pending as ive paid a few days ago, get it up n ill give you my info!

The spectator chat could be important for swaps for example, so I don't see a good reason to disable it. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Just contact me through the control panel after your server has been installed and I can update your server.

Edited by max, 18 April 2011 - 07:54 AM.

[BariS]

Max I have a new one for you.

It's about CTF. I'll start with kam2 first, since this is the only CTF map (which I know of) that is "symetric". The thing is, even though the map is supposed to be symetric. There are some differences, but one big one, and that's the color of each side.

These days everyone wants to play red (against blue). The reason for this is the fact that, when you are red and your shooting towards Characters of Blue Team (quite dark) whom are standing (most of the time) in front of a blue wall (quite bright), you have the advantage of seeing quite well.

Now when you are Blue, you have the contrary. The skins you are facing are "army colored" (also tends a bit more to dark) whom are standing (most of the time) in front of a red wall (it's a warm and dark color).

So even though this map is supposed to be "symetric" with a flaw here and there, the change in different colors & skins (which is a must, or else you couldn't seperate one team of another) gives an advantage to the Red team.

My suggestion was to expand the !cm in CTF such that when you input a timelimit, let's use 60 for example now, the !cm-code will automatically divide it by 2 (30). This means when the war is started and timelimit hits 30, both teams will given a short period of time to take a SS or w/e (just like inf), and the sides will be swapped automatically and set ready for a I don't know small !mr or a !gr or w/e. Just the same principal as inf, but the scores swap along and you do still see them as also for the played time.

Now for the other maps. Let's take Jor1 or Italy as example. Since these maps are non-symetric this would be ideal for these kinds of maps. You input a total timelimit which is divided by 2. And the maps automatically swaps (given the time to take SS etc) etc etc.. I guess you understand the rest ^^.

Now for the small issue's:

1. Timelimit HAS to hit at half time, whether it's a draw or not.
2. Timelimit HAS to hit at 2nd half time, whether it's a draw or not, with exception of KAM2, since Golden Flag is often played in case there is no winner in this map.

3. There is little problem at playing both sides equally in kam2, since when it goes to GF you don't know how long it will take to finish. So both teams can be playing both sides 30 mins until timelimit it exceed (GF). Don't know what we have to do with this, just leave the teams as it is then for now, until a better solution is found.

For now these are the issue's I can think of.

GL HF!

Edit:

4. Scorelimit should always be set to 0, since 90% of the maps in CTF are about getting as much as flags in a certain period of time. And in kam2 you'd have to set your own scorelimit with the !sl command.

That was my suggestion long time ago, and that what is bold is what I think is asked from you right now, it concerns CTF maps in general, and the rest of the text concerns kam2.
Of course it can also be done differently maybe. Just bringing it forward, so you don't need to search for it.

[max]

That's great Baris, thanks.

1. Agreed.
2. Making an exception for mp_kam2 would be kind of confusing don't you think? We could make an extra cvar for golden flag, but of course I'd like to keep the number of options to a minimum. Is it really neccessary to disable golden flag? If yes, I guess we could make a cvar for it and put golden flag on by default since most clans solely play mp_kam2.
3. In my experience golden flag takes ~20 min at most. However, if we make a golden flag cvar, then you could disable golden flag while playing and the match will end immediately. This way, you can end the match yourself if golden flag takes too long.

So I guess a cvar for golden flag would be best because it solves both 2 and 3. It will be enabled by default.

4. Agreed, scorelimit 0 by default, but it should be possible to put a scorelimit if desired.

5. (Yeah, let's continue numbering these.) I'm not sure if entering the total time limit is the best solution, is it better to give the timelimit for one round? Which is less confusing? I think the time limit for one round is best, and we can put it to 30 as default. Then you can modify it before the match starts (e.g. to 15 as Junior suggested). Would you like to be able to edit this default compmode time value, so that it will be 15 or 30 minutes every time you enable compmode? We can add a cvar for this if needed.

6. Next, I'm also thinking about the respawn interval. IIRC, with 5v5 we used 15 seconds. I could make an auto adjustment system for the respawn interval during competition mode, e.g.:

1v1: 3 s
2v2: 7 s
3v3: 10 s
4v4: 12 s
5v5: 15 s

It could switch real time. For example, you're playing 5v5 and one guy has to leave, you continue 4v4 and the respawn interval would be adjusted accordingly. Is this helpful or too confusing? Or is this map dependent and do you only want this in mp_kam2? Alternatively, we can set it to 15 by default, and you can edit it yourself before the match starts and optionally during the match.

7. Should the scoreboard show the combined score over both rounds? In infiltration it's separated, but you see the total score at the start of each round. I think it's better to combine the score in CTF (i.e. each team starts the second round with the first round team score, of course the player scores are reset).

Please let me know what you think.

Edit: just to let you know, I've already programmed most of the features.

Edited by max, 18 April 2011 - 10:50 AM.

[BladHark]

CTF matches are played over 2 maps, so you'd have to add up both maps scores (The ones that aren't played on the 1.00-kam2-style). So a sudden death rule would probably be a bit harder to import.
And no, there shouldn't be any scorelimit as it's all about the amount of flags you can get within the given time (15 min/side). The automated swapping would also indeed be useful as we get kicked back to shop every time we forget about this.

The respawninterval would also be confusing for CTF matches on other maps than kam2 as those matches are always played with the standard respawninterval of 15.

The idea of combining scores in ctf might be pretty good as I always lose count of the amount of flags we made anyway.

[BariS]

Well kam2 does kind of interfere with CTF in general.

So from what I've understand, it works like this:

1,2,3,4,5. We put a CTF map on and start playing. Golden Flag is on by default (for all CTF maps, kam2, jor1 etc). Therefore the timelimit (which has been set on 15 for example) won't hit because the score is 3-3 atm. But because we know we are playing jor1, we've disabled GF with a particular cvar. And now the timelimit will hit? The rounds will swap. The teamscores will be kept and be swapped along and we will continue playing for another 15 mins.

And if we are playing kam2, the GF cvar won't be touched, and all we have to do is set a new tl and sl, which we usually do anyways.

This is what you ment I guess right?
Well it's a solution I guess.

6. The autorespawn time sounds nice. And if people aren't happy with your auto-adjustment they can modify their server.cfg to their desired intervals I guess. But then you should watch when the respawninterval changes, because it shouldn't change at 5 v 4 IMO (there might be a substitute), but really when it goes from 5 v 5 to 4 v 4.

7. I agree with the idea of combined teamscores.

I was thinking of cvar names for the GF command. What about !kam2 (GF is enabled, and it's on by default for example, this command won't be used that often, since it's on by default). And when we change to any other CTF map apart from kam2 we use the command !gold (which disables GF etc etc). But then again there is confusion with maps such as Italy which isn't really a GOLD map and same goes for several other maps. Well w/e, maybe a different cvar name is more suitable.

[BariS]

Not a bad suggestion at all imo.

This way you can even leave kam2 as it is now. You do !cm(1) and start playing. Also the best option for Infiltration.

When we go play any other CTF map than kam2, we choose for !cm2 and now there is no GoldenFlag anymore and basically all what we have said earlier.

When we want to play kam2 with teams being swapped at half time, but at the same time keeping GoldenFlag on (because this was my suggestion, but I don't know if everyone/ everyclan would like to play it this way) you can now choose for !cm3 or you can still choose for !cm2, but then enable/disable the GF with a particular cvar.

Of course you want to keep the number of !cm's small, so maybe going for only !cm (inf-mode and ctf kam2 as it is now), and a !cm2 for CTF maps with a GF cvar that enabled/disables GF might be the best solution. I think this makes it easier for you, but I might be wrong.

Well for the nades niclas, I think max already added something like !nades feature, but it's in his newer mods. Maybe you also expand this into !nn (or !nades0), !nades1 and !nades2 (0/1/2 nades). Because in the noobroom cup (new cup in full with CTF gold maps & rules) people will want to play with 2 nades (gold rules), but maps like dep1 are mostly played with 1 nade. Of course this is also adjustable through the nd.cfg. But still they would be very useful.

[max]

CTF matches are played over 2 maps, so you'd have to add up both maps scores (The ones that aren't played on the 1.00-kam2-style). So a sudden death rule would probably be a bit harder to import.
And no, there shouldn't be any scorelimit as it's all about the amount of flags you can get within the given time (15 min/side). The automated swapping would also indeed be useful as we get kicked back to shop every time we forget about this.

The respawninterval would also be confusing for CTF matches on other maps than kam2 as those matches are always played with the standard respawninterval of 15.

The idea of combining scores in ctf might be pretty good as I always lose count of the amount of flags we made anyway.

The starting team score in the second round is the (swapped) score from the first round. Sudden death only counts in the second round (so 1st + 2nd score), this is easy to implement -- I've done this already. Automated swapping is of course also implemented.

We could make the respawn interval map dependent. This means that you can define the dynamic respawn interval for each map in the corresponding .ent file (map entity file), so you can make a different one for each map. If no respawn intervals are defined, we can simply use a static interval of 15. In the mod I could provide this for the mp_kam2 map, you can define it for other maps yourself. If not defined, a static respawn interval of 15 will be used (which you can change manually during the game if you wish). However, there is an additional problem: what if you are swapping and a team has 6 players temporarily? The respawn interval will be upped temporarily as well. Additionally, I think players will find the changing respawn intervals to be quite confusing. So I think the dynamic respawn intervals are pretty bad after all.

Well kam2 does kind of interfere with CTF in general.

So from what I've understand, it works like this:

1,2,3,4,5. We put a CTF map on and start playing. Golden Flag is on by default (for all CTF maps, kam2, jor1 etc). Therefore the timelimit (which has been set on 15 for example) won't hit because the score is 3-3 atm. But because we know we are playing jor1, we've disabled GF with a particular cvar. And now the timelimit will hit? The rounds will swap. The teamscores will be kept and be swapped along and we will continue playing for another 15 mins.

And if we are playing kam2, the GF cvar won't be touched, and all we have to do is set a new tl and sl, which we usually do anyways.

This is what you ment I guess right?
Well it's a solution I guess.

6. The autorespawn time sounds nice. And if people aren't happy with your auto-adjustment they can modify their server.cfg to their desired intervals I guess. But then you should watch when the respawninterval changes, because it shouldn't change at 5 v 4 IMO (there might be a substitute), but really when it goes from 5 v 5 to 4 v 4.

7. I agree with the idea of combined teamscores.

I was thinking of cvar names for the GF command. What about !kam2 (GF is enabled, and it's on by default for example, this command won't be used that often, since it's on by default). And when we change to any other CTF map apart from kam2 we use the command !gold (which disables GF etc etc). But then again there is confusion with maps such as Italy which isn't really a GOLD map and same goes for several other maps. Well w/e, maybe a different cvar name is more suitable.

is it possible to do different settings for comp mode eg

!cm 1 is normal as it is now

!cm 2 is for 5 v 5 gameplay (different respawn time)

!cm 3 is with nades

etc etc

hope u understand what i mean

1-5: Correct, except for the golden flag thing. Imagine there is a cvar named "goldenFlag". You can enable or disable it by using "!gf" as an admin. When you enable compmode you can set goldenFlag during the warmup (or at any other point during the game). The server will remember this value, so the next time you enable competition mode it will use the same value you used last time.

6. Indeed, with 4v5 we can use the 5v5 respawn interval. Mathematically we use max ( red, blue ). Like I said above I think the dynamic respawn interval is bad after all, I think we should use a static one (15) that you can change manually.

7. Good.

8. This is basically what Niclas referred to as well. So far, the map dependent options we've discovered are the following:

1. Golden flag
2. Respawn interval
3. Nades (for Gold map perhaps)

I think using different compmode options (like Niclas said, !cm 1/2/3) is kind of confusing for most players. Therefore, I suggest the following:

1. Golden flag: you can change it by using "!gf". The server will remember the value you used last.
2. Respawn interval: I think we should use a static one, like I exlained above. You can change it at any time during the match with "!ri". The server will remember the value you used last.
3. Nades: you can enable or disable these by using the "!nn" command.

This way there is no need for different competition mode options. Variables 1 and 2 will be remembered by the server, so you don't have to change them each time you enable competition mode (provided that you are content to play with the same settings you used before). The default values will be golden flag enabled and respawn interval 15.

I think this idea is quite solid now. However:

9. Should we discard the dynamic respawn intervals, or is it worth including them despite the problems?

10. Should a scorelimit be absolute or per round? For example, normally you use 60/5 timelimit/scorelimit in mp_kam. If you get 5 flags during the first round (first 30 minutes), there is no need to play the second round. So: should there be an absolute scorelimit or a scorelimit per round? I guess again mp_kam2 is the exception, and a scorelimit per round should be used. I agree with the default scorelimit of 0.

[max]

Not a bad suggestion at all imo.

This way you can even leave kam2 as it is now. You do !cm(1) and start playing. Also the best option for Infiltration.

When we go play any other CTF map than kam2, we choose for !cm2 and now there is no GoldenFlag anymore and basically all what we have said earlier.

When we want to play kam2 with teams being swapped at half time, but at the same time keeping GoldenFlag on (because this was my suggestion, but I don't know if everyone/ everyclan would like to play it this way) you can now choose for !cm3 or you can still choose for !cm2, but then enable/disable the GF with a particular cvar.

Of course you want to keep the number of !cm's small, so maybe going for only !cm (inf-mode and ctf kam2 as it is now), and a !cm2 for CTF maps with a GF cvar that enabled/disables GF might be the best solution. I think this makes it easier for you, but I might be wrong.

Well for the nades niclas, I think max already added something like !nades feature, but it's in his newer mods. Maybe you also expand this into !nn (or !nades0), !nades1 and !nades2 (0/1/2 nades). Because in the noobroom cup (new cup in full with CTF gold maps & rules) people will want to play with 2 nades (gold rules), but maps like dep1 are mostly played with 1 nade. Of course this is also adjustable through the nd.cfg. But still they would be very useful.

Double post. I addressed most of your points already in my previous post. As for the Noobroom cup: this cup has many unusual settings (g_speed 280, g_friendlyFire 1, g_allowThirdPerson 0, nades allowed). To include all these settings in a "!cm x" command would be kind of messy I think. You'd better make a CFG file which enables all settings, including the nades (g_weaponModFile). You can use a different CFG file which disables the settings again. If you want I can create such files and upload them on servers on request.

Edited by max, 18 April 2011 - 01:05 PM.

[BariS]

Well the dynamic respawn interval is just a bonus, but might bring problems along indeed. I think there is nothing wrong with changing the spawn manually, since it can be done very quickly anyway.

For the kam2 issue, I've never thought of this situation, and what would a fair solution. I'm also not sure, how many people would be happy with these changes to kam2. It was my suggestion, and I see it as a fair thing to do. But then again, (I know some do have the same thought) but what does the majority think about this. Maybe we can just leave kam2 as it is now and has been for years, by I don't know maybe defining it as an inf map so it stays as it is now when !cm is turned on.

Also then there won't be any GF issue anymore. Well I don't know

[max]

Well the dynamic respawn interval is just a bonus, but might bring problems along indeed. I think there is nothing wrong with changing the spawn manually, since it can be done very quickly anyway.

For the kam2 issue, I've never thought of this situation, and what would a fair solution. I'm also not sure, how many people would be happy with these changes to kam2. It was my suggestion, and I see it as a fair thing to do. But then again, (I know some do have the same thought) but what does the majority think about this. Maybe we can just leave kam2 as it is now and has been for years, by I don't know maybe defining it as an inf map so it stays as it is now when !cm is turned on.

Also then there won't be any GF issue anymore. Well I don't know

Well there really isn't a GF issue, it will be enabled by default. If you're playing a different map, you can simply disable it temporarily with "!gf". The scorelimit can be 3 for each round, so a total of 6 will be used (as opposed to 5 currently). Auto-swap at 30 min is used as well. What are the problems exactly?

[BariS]

Well there are problems.

Imagine we play with the new RPM. We fuck around a little and lose 3 flags within 5 mins, not saying it happens frequently but has happened in the past (lost even 4 within 10 mins). Now we we would have 50/55 mins to get back at least 3 flags or more.

But with the new RPM we'll be limited to having 30 mins instead? If you make an adjustment to this by saying the teams will be swapped when a team hits the scorelimit and the remaining mins will be counted on top of the 30 mins, it fucks up the "fair both teams play red & blue 30 mins each" thing of this system.

I just can't figure out a good system for kam2. IMO it should have been played like any other map without scorelimits (GF). Each team plays 15 mins each side and the team who has taken the most flag wins. Simple as that. But this goes against the ancient kam2 scrims/wars/rules.

[bia-tch]

Well if wanna make it a bit more attractive we could, and should change..

imo CTF cud be more alive if ppl wud stand more open to the 2x15min per map and having 2 maps @ one scrim.. keep scorelimit off and just do it with timelimit.. if its a draw its a draw..

[Slizer]

What the fuck. So many books.

Edited by Slizer, 18 April 2011 - 02:40 PM.

[max]

Well there are problems.

Imagine we play with the new RPM. We fuck around a little and lose 3 flags within 5 mins, not saying it happens frequently but has happened in the past (lost even 4 within 10 mins). Now we we would have 50/55 mins to get back at least 3 flags or more.

But with the new RPM we'll be limited to having 30 mins instead? If you make an adjustment to this by saying the teams will be swapped when a team hits the scorelimit and the remaining mins will be counted on top of the 30 mins, it fucks up the "fair both teams play red & blue 30 mins each" thing of this system.

I just can't figure out a good system for kam2. IMO it should have been played like any other map without scorelimits (GF). Each team plays 15 mins each side and the team who has taken the most flag wins. Simple as that. But this goes against the ancient kam2 scrims/wars/rules.

Good point. Disabling the scorelimit could still be an option though, and one team will probably "give up" if they lose lots of flags (i.e. ragequit). Do you think losing the scorelimit is that big a problem?

Well if wanna make it a bit more attractive we could, and should change..

imo CTF cud be more alive if ppl wud stand more open to the 2x15min per map and having 2 maps @ one scrim.. keep scorelimit off and just do it with timelimit.. if its a draw its a draw..

Granted it's fun, but many people prefer playing what they've always played (that's why mp_shop and mp_kam2 are basically the only played maps). People are reluctant to change. Golden flag is indeed impossible if you play 2 maps, but you can still use it if you play a single map.

[BariS]

Well max it's hard to answer.
Look personally I wouldn't mind I guess. In the end you play kam2, and you win or lose. But on the other hand, ctf kam2 (normal dmg) is quite dead and this might totally kill it or make it a little more active, who knows.
I would love to see all the CTF kam2 players coming here and bringing their opinion forward, whether kam2 CTF is going to stay this way or is going to be played like every CTF map is played. But unfortunately that won't happen, and since I don't want to base my opinion fully on personal preferences I don't know how to answer you :S.

No matter how I think of this I come to conclusion that the new features and shit are perfect for CTF in general. And that it's a great addition to the RPM-mod.
But either ctf kam2 has to be played like all the other CTF maps without a scorelimit. Or ctf kam2 has to be treated as an exception and has to be kept as it is now (I'm not even sure if this is doable?).

[max]

Well max it's hard to answer.
Look personally I wouldn't mind I guess. In the end you play kam2, and you win or lose. But on the other hand, ctf kam2 (normal dmg) is quite dead and this might totally kill it or make it a little more active, who knows.
I would love to see all the CTF kam2 players coming here and bringing their opinion forward, whether kam2 CTF is going to stay this way or is going to be played like every CTF map is played. But unfortunately that won't happen, and since I don't want to base my opinion fully on personal preferences I don't know how to answer you :S.

No matter how I think of this I come to conclusion that the new features and shit are perfect for CTF in general. And that it's a great addition to the RPM-mod.
But either ctf kam2 has to be played like all the other CTF maps without a scorelimit. Or ctf kam2 has to be treated as an exception and has to be kept as it is now (I'm not even sure if this is doable?).

Like you pointed out earlier, in mp_kam2 one side has an advantage over the other due to the better player visibility. Therefore swapping teams makes alot of sense. I think giving up the scorelimit for this is reasonable. As you know I used to play CTF, and I remember that getting 5 flags was rare if you had decent opponents.

I would be amazed if these simple features would revive CTF, but it would be a great thing because it increases the gametype variety.

[BariS]

I totally agree with you max. I just hope that we're not the only ones who think like this.