88 replies to this topic

[Richard]

So I was pretty much wondering when reading all the posts, the pro's and cons of everything. Lets make an example and see some statements.

Example:
'What if an immigrants violates the law multiply times in a row, should he get send back to his orginal country?

On 1 side, I'd think why would this be a problem to any 'good' immigrant? They would probably get a better name within a few years and they don't have to fear anything because they act normal. (I've never done any big crime for example)'

There's also downsides of sending people back, but I'd first like to see the oppinion of the people here on it.

Please don't flame, I just made up this example to see different sides of the story and to see real arguments.

[maniman]

Depends on what sort of violations. I mean, everyone has its teenager times. Make mistakes. I got caught up in a lot of bullshit myself also.

But heavy violations like rape, multiple heavy violence to murder that kind of stuff above the age of 18+ i wouldnt mind sending back the person to its home country. Or when the person originally come from Holland i dont mind 20+ year celltimes etc. But come on, we just talking about little Teenage scum stealing and calling people names a bit. People just get scared very quickly, cant handle a bit of intimidation.

But this is, totally off-topic... ?

get rid of the no spang guy in your avatar looolrofl

[Haapis]

http://www.reuters.c...E52P60220090326
"A United Nations forum on Thursday passed a resolution condemning "defamation of religion" as a human rights violation"

=> UN tries to get an international law which makes criticizing religions illegal.

[Samuel]

So lets see, how many immigrants would u know... Lets say u know 300 immigrants, and 95% doesn't cause problems.
So thats 285 + urself as u stated above, thats 286 immigrants.
For your convenience i will only count Turks and Moroccans as 'immigrants', around 700000. (a bit higher)
U think my theory is to hell because u can speak for 0,4% of the immigrants.
Alper go to bed.





What 'racist jokes' are u talking about?
Did u even read my posts?
Why would i start a topic on dutch people, if they don't cause the majority of problems?

And you can speak for 99,6% ?

[Larry]

Add one to one and you will notice that if we keep taking Muslim immigrants we end up with a law that allows marital-rape.

That's a false argument. When you add one to one you'll notice that muslim immigrants will start adjusting to our culture and habits, one sooner than the other and with some exceptions obviously.
European immigrated muslims are completely different from muslims in the Arabic countries, so these stances from the Arabic League or w/e can't be simply drawn towards every single muslim in Belgium or Holland.

If I were a Netherlander, I'd vote for Wilders also His arguments are throughfully researched and explained, thus causing alot of trouble for people without resolution.

The problem is his arguments aren't throughfully researched and explained at all. He's a populist, meaning his subjects are mostly about very obvious problems that live in today's society, things you can score with in large public, but he gives very simple answers to them that simply don't work in practice for several reasons. For instance:
- Moral restrictions (read: he's using a racistic discours)
- You can't simply draw a line between people who deserve their place in our society and people who don't that easily.
- Wilders is forgetting the economic aspects of throwing all foreigners out, which would have dramatic consequences.

People get annoyed by people from Maroco, Turkey or Poland in daily life, not because of their religion but because it's a fact that the percentage of foreigners committing crimes or living on the edge of our society is much higher than with Belgians or Netherlandish people. The second fact has nothing to do with them being muslim; it's simply a social problem, that immigrants have less job possibilities and chances in general.
The idea that Wilders uses these silly arguments about muslim fundamentalism, which doesn't live that much in the minds of today's immigrants, simply shows he's (a) too dumb to see the real problem or ( a racist.

You can see you saying "his arguments are very researched" is wrong already by taking a closer look at his Fitna thingy, a real piece of work. Just check out youtube, you'll find lots of films that show how he rips lines out of their contexts, twists the truth all the time and dramatises everything. Which doesn't mean I support everything in the Koran, just as I don't support everything in the Bible.

Another thing about his popularity in Netherland: we had the same phenomenon in Belgium with Vlaams Belang. Now Lijst Dedecker shows up, a right party but not as extreme as VB, taking a lot of VB's votes: these votes are just by people who are frustrated by the traditional parties and need to ventilate their frustrations and the only party they saw was a party that's obviously racist, simply 'cause there wasn't another choice for these simple minds. If there pops up a party with as much of a populistic discours as Wilders without the racistic edges, Wilders' popularity will drop.

[Eminem]

Mulsims are human beings as much as me, you, and everyone else in the world.
being a muslim doesn't maked you a bad person, a man isn't born bad, he can become one when he's growing up.
yet, there is a problem with muslims and the problem is their religious, or to be more specific their radical religious leaders who interpreting the Koran in a radical, violent and wrong way.
the Shi'ite Muslims culture force them to be bad people. a man can't hang gays on the streets just for being gay and be a good person. a man that wants to destroy everyone who doesn't believe in god can't be a good person.
being radical in generaly isn't a good thing.

[Richard]

Larry: Wilders talks about radical muslims and he thinks some of the verses in the Koran are bad, beacuse we have different worths and values here in western Europe.

Wilders words pretty much sound like he takes it to the edge, maybe he is, I really have no clue:
But lets not forget for example: Death-penalty (or lifetime jail) is still the punishment for homosexuality in muslim countries. This is something totaly out of line with western Europe where homosexuality is accepted. Muslim immigrants (matter fact, ALL immigrants) should accept homosexuality in western Europe.
Do not forget differences in culture as posted above are one of the reasons there is more criminality in western Europe by muslims, thats a point of Wilders nobody can disagree.

I do have the feeling Wilders shuffles all the problems to the muslims, while we now got a 'new' group of immigrants in western Europe; the Polish and they are very criminal aswell. This means its not just muslims are differences in culture.

I think in some years cultures will be so mixed, people will marry eachother and there will hardly be any racism left.

ps. I'm don't agree with Wilders on all his points (he's a bit too extreme-right for me) and I will not vote for him.

[Eminem]

Richard wrote:
"Do not forget differences in culture as posted above are one of the reasons there is more criminality in western Europe by muslims, thats a point of Wilders nobody can disagree."

you can ascribe this to the fact that the criminals are muslim, but you should ascribe it to the fact that they're the ethnic minority in your country (you NL right? though it doesnt matter because muslims are the ethnic minority in most of europe).
in every place on earth the ethnic minority is less educated, more poor, more delinquently behavoring. in USA the biggest number of people from ethnic group in prisons are black and latins, not muslims.
it doesn't have anything to do with them being muslims, but to the fact that they're living in a lack.

in the other hand, there's alot of problems with their religious, which is conservative in the bad way, very chauvinistic, and just very bad and violent in generaly.

[Haapis]

you can ascribe this to the fact that the criminals are muslim, but you should ascribe it to the fact that they're the ethnic minority in your country (you NL right? though it doesnt matter because muslims are the ethnic minority in most of europe).
in every place on earth the ethnic minority is less educated, more poor, more delinquently behavoring. in USA the biggest number of people from ethnic group in prisons are black and latins, not muslims.
it doesn't have anything to do with them being muslims, but to the fact that they're living in a lack.

Funny how you speak the way you were sure of those facts but you wont link us any source.

For instance its easy to prove you wrong. In England 4/10 would like sharia take part in England's law. In other words that means that women are not working but raising the kids. That leaves at least 20% of the Muslims not even seeking for a job. Then if we still add this 20% the ones who wont get a job, are in jail or dont need a job because of drug business we got a great reason why to not respect them.

[Zippa]

I've watched quite a load of wilders' stuff from youtube. Maybe I was a bit decieved by the, good word, populist. His point of view is really unique and I appreciate his guts to speak words out loud. As you said, he's being really radical and extreme in his expressions, but that's probably his trumph. I wonder, if people even recognized him, had he taken a lighter way of approach to this matter.

Now, showing me the other edge of the sword and correcting my foolness, I take my words back about going for Wilders. I should find out stuff from different sources first, before joining the discussion. nt.

Thanks for valuable info.

[Eminem]

Funny how you speak the way you were sure of those facts but you wont link us any source.

For instance its easy to prove you wrong. In England 4/10 would like sharia take part in England's law. In other words that means that women are not working but raising the kids. That leaves at least 20% of the Muslims not even seeking for a job. Then if we still add this 20% the ones who wont get a job, are in jail or dont need a job because of drug business we got a great reason why to not respect them.

your last 2 sentences are full of racism, I wont be able to convince you no matter what I say because I can clearly see that you hate Muslims.
once again, yes there's a problem with their religion laws, and there's alot of bad persons muslims.
but there's also alot of bad persons that are christians, jews, and what so ever.
all the symptoms that you're mentioning is the outcome of being ethnic minority. there's more black and latins that are drug dealers and in prisons then white american people in USA.
it's not because black or latin people are bad persons, it's because they living in a lack and they're uneducated, they living in ghettos and in the streets. the outcome of this is them becoming criminals.
same as muslims in europe.

do you think in turkey most of the muslims are not seeking for job, in prison and drug dealers? no. why? because they're not ethnic minority.

A FACT is that people who lives in a lack and without education got a big chance to become criminals, whether they muslims, chrisitans, jews, black or white.

[Anus Cocainus]

your last 2 sentences are full of racism, I wont be able to convince you no matter what I say because I can clearly see that you hate Muslims.
once again, yes there's a problem with their religion laws, and there's alot of bad persons muslims.
but there's also alot of bad persons that are christians, jews, and what so ever.
all the symptoms that you're mentioning is the outcome of being ethnic minority. there's more black and latins that are drug dealers and in prisons then white american people in USA.
it's not because black or latin people are bad persons, it's because they living in a lack and they're uneducated, they living in ghettos and in the streets. the outcome of this is them becoming criminals.
same as muslims in europe.

do you think in turkey most of the muslims are not seeking for job, in prison and drug dealers? no. why? because they're not ethnic minority.

A FACT is that people who lives in a lack and without education got a big chance to become criminals, whether they muslims, chrisitans, jews, black or white.

But the thing is u simply can't compare the USA with the Netherlands.
The social-benefits in Holland are way better, and even the worst neighberhoods in Holland are miles away from a real 'ghetto'.
And ur statement that minorities cannot succeed are simply not true.
We have allot of people from Indonesia and chinese people here aswell, and most of them do very well.
We also got allot of people from Poland the last few years, and yet they work hard, and they hardly create problems.
It is to easy to simply state: we are a minority so we create more problems.
Gotta get back tow ork, speak to u abit later today.

[Eminem]

Look, of course you cannot justify violent and criminal behavior, it's not right. but to ascribe the muslims behavior in holland to the fact that they're muslims it's not correct.
for example, in the nazi germany jews were the minority. jews didn't have equal education abillities, or even basic human rights. their taxes wasn't equal, the goverment approach toward christians and jews wasn't equal, therefore alot of jews became communists, and weren't loyal to germany.
Hitler decided that jews are the germany nation problem, and wanted to kill them all.
hmm i didnt maked that example very clear, my phrasing wasn't good but im just not good in writen english.
i'm not really updated with whats going on in holland, I cannot tell how good the welfare services there, and im aware to the fact that there is a muslim problem in holland (also in england, france and sweeden)
my point is that put all the blame on the muslims is the most easy thing to do, but it's not correct to ascribe this social problem to them being muslims.
and attempt to do that is just racism.
i would like to say that instead of hate them, this wilders guy should try to give the muslims in holland social equality, give them more places in the parliament (you do got parliament in holland right?) and stuff like that. but you know better then me what's going on in holland, therefore i would just like to clarify my point - muslims are not bad persons. the enviorment makes some of them bad.

[Eminem]

Yes, it's true; "his arguments are throughfully researched and explained". Too bad he doesn't have a realistic solution for _ANYTHING_. His solutions are like: "Let's kick all the Muslims outta this country". Btw, that isn't a joke. It was really one of his solutions. Besides that Muslims are Wilders' only problem. Muslims are the only thing he focusses on, he doens't even tries to take a look at the real problems.

though i'm not really posses knowledge about the holland politics, I agree with turQua. you can't just say "muslims are the problem, lets throw them back to saudi arabia". problems are much more deeper than that.
It's like the foreign affairs minister of Israel, Lieberman, who says that all the problems in our country is the arabs and we need to kick them all outta here. it's so wrong and stupid, how can a man posses ideas like those, it's beyond me understanding.

[Ravea]

Here are some videos, slovenian title. But it's worth to see.

Netherland pray in the centre of the city

Sweden

Belgium fight beetwen anderlecht supporters and immigrants

islam in europe what can happend

a group of black persons attack a white guy, cuz he is white

Slovakia <-- a gypsy mugged, and raped lady

Some videos are bound on immigrants and muslims.

Edited by Ravea, 07 April 2009 - 12:50 PM.

[Eminem]

what massage you tried to pass by posting this videos?
that there's bad people in the world?
"black persons attack white man cause he white"...
are you kidding me?
have you ever heard about the KKK?

[Anus Cocainus]

Lol @ you Anus. You Dutch people keep complaining that Muslims in the Netherlands speak Dutch very bad. But those polonian guys you are talking about don't even try to speak Dutch. All they do is drink Vodka and illicit work all day long. But they arn't muslims, so it's no problem for you to ignore that Anus.

If the muslims would drink vodka all day and work hard, i really wouldn't be making any problem.

Yes, it's true; "his arguments are throughfully researched and explained". Too bad he doesn't have a realistic solution for _ANYTHING_. His solutions are like: "Let's kick all the Muslims outta this country". Btw, that isn't a joke. It was really one of his solutions. Besides that Muslims are Wilders' only problem. Muslims are the only thing he focusses on, he doens't even try to take a look at the real problems.

He NEVER stated he wanted to kick ALL muslims out of the country!
He said the multi-criminal delinquents, the crazy sharia-babling imams and social security frauds.
And to be honest, his policy on immigration really isn't the only reason i vote for this man.
The rest of his program really isn't that bad, and after years and years of Christian gray-hairs in our parliament, atleast Wilders is giving a fresh impulse with other idea's, both his program AND his hair. To bad he wants to get rid of the weed.

what massage you tried to pass by posting this videos?
that there's bad people in the world?
"black persons attack white man cause he white"...
are you kidding me?
have you ever heard about the KKK?

Agree, those video's mean little, i could easily post 10 rodney king video's here...

Edited by Anus Cocainus, 07 April 2009 - 02:01 PM.